Professor Michael Heath
Researcher in microbiology, oceanography, marine biology and mathematics.
Lead of the NERC Changing Arctic Ocean project
“Microbes to Megafauna Modelling of the Arctic Seas” (MiMeMo)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
sea, people, climate change, Shetland, fisheries policy, plankton, data models, porpoises, birds, fish, fishing, currents, Arctic, ship
SPEAKERS
Daniel Tulloch, Prof. Michael Heath
Daniel Tulloch
So first of all, can you tell me your name?
Prof. Michael Heath
So, my name is Michael Heath. I work at the University of Strathclyde.
Daniel Tulloch
Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
In the Maths and Stats department.
Daniel Tulloch
Oh right, okay! So you went from, ah, Marine Scotland to-?
Prof. Michael Heath
Strathclyde Maths and Stats.
I don't know if you've heard of MASTS on your travels? So it was the Scottish Funding Council who support Scottish universities put up a fund of money in 2001 to create an organisation which brought together all the marine science activity in Scottish universities. So some of that went to Strathclyde, and I sort of moved to Strathclyde, on the back of that to set up a marine modelling group in the Maths and Stats department.
We do maths and statistics modelling of life in the sea.
Daniel Tulloch
So you create sort of the models used for other institutions as well, or?
Prof. Michael Heath
It's a sort of research activity but ultimately, we're trying to address real world problems associated with fisheries and climate change, and algal blooms, and seabirds, and seals and -
Daniel Tulloch
Wow! Yeah, so like everything basically!
Prof. Michael Heath
Everything! Right. Life in the sea from microbes to whales.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, wow. So, you create, is it the programmes? Is that correct?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. Yeah. So computer programmes.
Daniel Tulloch
Computer programmes.
Prof. Michael Heath
Which represent sort of the mathematics of who-eats-who in the sea and where they swim, what the currents do and - so it collates the data and then outputs, the projections, what's expected?
Prof. Michael Heath
So we'll predict models that predict what will happen in future climate scenarios, under different levels of fishing.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Quite a wide range of things as well.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. Yeah. It's really exciting. I mean you get involved in all sorts of different things. Like this project!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. And is it, would you say overall, it's... So what sort of projects have you been working on recently?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, we just completed a project in the Arctic on the Barents Sea. So looking at the combined effects of climate change and fishing on the Barents Sea ecosystem. In the process of applying that to the east Greenland shelf. There's a difference, so the Barents Sea is very seasonally covered with ice. But even in the winter, the ice is retreating. So in 30 years time, there won't be any ice at all in the Barents Sea. East Greenland at the moment-
Daniel Tulloch
..in 30 years!
Prof. Michael Heath
- is covered with ice almost all year round.
Daniel Tulloch
Wow, and what's the main driver for that?
Prof. Michael Heath
It's warming.
Daniel Tulloch
Warming?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
As in the sea is warming? Or the air or the...
Prof. Michael Heath
The sea is warming.
In the 1980s, in the winter the Barents Sea was probably 60% ice covered and by 2040 / 2050 it'll be 5%. It's a very, very dynamic area in terms of retreating sea ice.
Daniel Tulloch
That's terrifying, really.
Prof. Michael Heath
(Softly) Yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
That must have like, you know, incredible, like, massive implications for everything?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh massive implications for polar bears. That's for sure.
So you know, their, their ability to forage out into the Barents Sea on the ice is disappearing - doesn't mean polar bears are disappearing from the Arctic - it just means they're retreating from the Barents Sea.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, they have to move elsewhere.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
Does that have any sort of correlation to the conveyor belt? In the Atlantic? Is that sort of...
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. So the North Atlantic current is carrying heat into the into the Arctic through the Barents Sea.
And transporting plankton and nutrients and everything else that supplies the Arctic. And the same's coming in through the Bering Sea in from the Pacific. So you've got these two inflows to the Arctic from either side of - the Atlantic inflow and a Pacific inflow - and the circulation within the Arctic Basin that mixes the two so -
Daniel Tulloch
Right, right. And how do you collect the data? Is that just ships that go out to get the...
Prof. Michael Heath
Well I guess, in our job in the Maths and Stats department we're relying on other people for data collection, and models, and we're using those to validate and drive our models. But I mean, in the past in my previous job in Marine Scotland Science I spent a lot of time at sea, so. Three months a year probably at sea. On the Scotia and the -
Daniel Tulloch
Oh you were on the Scotia? I looked at jobs actually on Marine Scotland boats, what were they like?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh, Scotia is a fabulous boat! It was real state of the art at the time. The flue tank, and the drum keel, and, very, very stable.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll get a job there... Yeah that's off topic (laughs). So what other projects have you been working on and...?
Prof. Michael Heath
Doing a lot of European funded projects. So we have a project called Mission Atlantic at the moment, which is doing integrated ecosystem assessments, all - of the whole Atlantic basin, but also regional seas around the Atlantic. So the model that we've just, the food-web ecosystem model that we've developed and used in the Barents Sea is being, now being applied in the Celtic Sea, around the Canary Islands, West African coast, South Africa, Brazil, the Azores, Ascension Island, and all these locations around, around the Atlantic. So we've got - using the same model in many different locations and then we can do comparable set of scenario experiments of what will happen if you increase fishing or decrease fishing? Or how will each of these regions respond to climate change in the future?
Daniel Tulloch
Right? Okay, yeah, and thinking about climate change in, in Scotland? -Sorry I'm finding it quite hard to ask you a question, because I feel like you know, everything! I don't really know where to go with this, because there's a lot of avenues that we could go down. But I suppose thinking about the project and migration routes, and everything... Have you looked at that and how the climate impacts on migration routes? Could you sort of summarise that at all, or?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well I guess there's two aspects to migration routes, there's sort of passive migration, those are animals that are just carried by the currents, so that's the plankton, and certainly those have changed, will change, considerably in the future, as ocean currents change and strengthen. So we can see changes in the advection pathways of plankton from the Atlantic into the Arctic.
Daniel Tulloch
What's advection pathways sorry?
Prof. Michael Heath
That's the transport by ocean currents. So these are animals that are completely passive. They're not swimming. They're just being carried by the currents.
Developing and reproducing as they, as they're carried along. Yeah, so the the passive transport of plankton into the Arctic is, is changing. So the other aspect of migration, I guess, is active migration. By stuff that's swimming, has the capability to swim against the tide. Because they have the power to to determine where they're going.
And you know, that's, that's fish and sea birds and whales and other larger animals. So, I'm - one of the projects we've done, we completed recently is a PhD student project on migrations of blue whiting, in the North Atlantic. I don't know if you're familiar with blue whiting?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Not really, no -
Prof. Michael Heath
It's what we call a sort of miso-pelagic fish, so it lives 200 to 400 metres deep in the ocean. I'm gonna guess it looks like a sort of large whiting, but it's not the same species. It's got, it's a different, it's a different species. But it's the same sort of shape and size of fish; it eats plankton. And they spawn every year west of Ireland. Yeah, sort of the areas sort of west of Scotland to the west of Ireland. And the larvae are carried south in to the Bay of Biscay and east into the North Sea.
Daniel Tulloch
So the larvae goes with the currents?
Prof. Michael Heath
The larvae goes with the currents, and then they grow up in the continental shelf waters until they're ready to spawn and then they go back and join the adult stock. And the adult stock spawns off west of Ireland and then swims up to the north of Norway to feed on the plankton there in the summer, and then migrates back each year to the west of Ireland. And that migration route is partly active and partly directed by where the plankton are. So they're, you know, they're sensing where the plankton are in space and time and following the following the wave of plankton production as it, as it goes north in the summer.
Daniel Tulloch
Is there any ideas of how they know that too? Do they just, they just go with the currents? And sort of -
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah (laughs) 'must go north" (laughs). Ah that's a big question because we don't exactly know how animals migrate. I mean there's some evidence that butterflies, for example, use the hight of the sun to migrate, and so they're using astronomical migration, I guess, I guess, essentially. But we don't know exactly how fish migrate, whether it's clockwork, cued, it's in their genes (laughs) - or whether they're sensing the sun height, or you know, so they get some orientation like that, or following temperature gradients, or we just don't know. Yeah, I mean, and the best we can do is, in our models, is speculate about what may be the mechanisms and code those into the models and then test whether they work or not. It's one of the reasons we you know, it's one of the ways we can drill down to what might be controlling their migrations.
Daniel Tulloch
Absolutely. Yeah. So if you have enough sort of, you know, data on a certain thing that I suppose you can test it out and see, you know, is that possible?
Prof. Michael Heath
Could that possibly work?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Could that work?
Prof. Michael Heath
Doesn't prove it.
Daniel Tulloch
Doesn't prove it? No.
Prof. Michael Heath
Doesn't prove it, but it gets us a bit closer to understanding.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. And the local area as well, you, Jennifer said to me that you go sailing? You have a little boat?
Prof. Michael Heath
A laser dinghy.
Daniel Tulloch
Cool!
Prof. Michael Heath
A laser. Yes, yes.
Daniel Tulloch
I used to do a little bit of that when I was younger.
Prof. Michael Heath
In Shetland?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah in Shetland, yeah, we used to go -
Prof. Michael Heath
Sailing Bressay Sound and the-
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, that's where I went, that's what, that's what it was, yeah. But, my mum was always just a bit annoyed after because I, we always just went jumping into the sea, because you know, that's what you do after after going on, sailing. You sort of run and jump off the pier. Absolutely drenched. And my mum's like, ahhh, almost always kind of annoyed and I was like, that's what children do mum!
Prof. Michael Heath
Yep. (Both laugh) Yeah, I'm a pretty keen sailor... I'm pretty keen at dingy sailing.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, it's a lot of fun! I really had a great time. Although my dad and my, my older sister went off one day, because my dad got a dingy sail, because we're kind of into it and then ah, they wen't off and it capsized, and it was not good, at all. They were quite far away, and my sister told my dad to, sort of go to hell, or something! (Both laugh.) And she just swam ashore!
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, the winds can be pretty gusty in Bressay Sound. It comes over, over the island. And -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But, but yeah no know, it's fun. I'm actually maybe going sailing because my dad's got a bigger boat. So maybe heading off sailing later this year on a big voyage somewhere. So yeah, which hopefully will be quite exciting, you know. See where it will take us, see where the currents will take us, you know?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes. Yeah. And it's a tough place to dingy sail around Shetland, that's for sure (inhales).
Daniel Tulloch
Definitely. Good fun, though. Yeah. And so the sailing that you do here, do you see much in the way of wildlife in the area?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
You see a lot, yeah?
Prof. Michael Heath
I mean, I sort of keep a, just an ad hoc diary of the wildlife that I see when I'm out sailing every day. So yeah, a lot of porpoises, though, having said that, very few this winter.
Daniel Tulloch
Oh really?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, it's quite variable. So some winters, the porpoises, there's a group of them come and live up here and, off Helensburgh and the Gare Loch, but absolutely none this winter.
Daniel Tulloch
Really? Interesting -
Prof. Michael Heath
Em, there were some bottlenose, pod of bottlenose dolphins up here this last summer, which is very unusual. Hadn't seen them before.
Daniel Tulloch
Really? Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And then the bottle, northern Bottlenose Whales the year before that, of course, that were all over the newspapers.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. Do you think that's something to do with the warming seas? Do you think?
Prof. Michael Heath
I really doubt it, actually.
Daniel Tulloch
Really?
Prof. Michael Heath
I think these, you know, everybody likes to attribute everything to climate change and warming, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. You know, the Clyde has a very high density of porpoises. It's, it's one of the hotspots for porpoises in the west of Britain. That's just how it is. There's a lot of food for them here. Lot of sprats, and a lot of krill in the, in the Clyde, and it's a good place for them to live.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Sheltered isn't it?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
I suppose yeah animals just tend to go back to the same spots don't they? You know, they make a home and, you know if there's, no sort of threatening, you know threats coming from other places then you know it makes makes a good home for them, you know. I suppose when another, it's like a bird species you know, some of them will drive by other birds but they'll just move to other, elsewhere, you know.
Prof. Michael Heath
Occasionally you get orcas up, up this far but - they just, you know, come on a visit, gobble a few seals (both laugh), go away again.
Daniel Tulloch
Really? Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I've never seen them, unfortunately.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, you see a few up in Shetland as well.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, I've seen them when I've been out in the Scotia you know, sort of diving into the, into the net as it's coming aboard the boat and stealing fish and running away again. Yeah, huge boat, huge animals; they are so powerful, you know?
Daniel Tulloch
Really? Jesus, that must be terrifying. You wouldn't want that to dive too much into the net incase it flips -
Prof. Michael Heath
It gets tangled. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Tulloch
It gets tangled, and then also capsises the boat as well...
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, the big fishing boat, that's not going to happen. But there's this sort of annual cycle of birds that spend time up in this part of the Clyde. So the area sort of between Helensburgh and Ardmore Point, is a, you know, sort of bird over-wintering area. So it's quite, it's quite you know, interesting to see these birds coming and going at different times a year, and gannets are up here from Ailsa Craig in the spring and the summer. I suspect it's the juvenile gannets that aren't breeding, but, there's just a few of them come chasing sprats. And mackerel appear in the summer and in the autumn.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. What would you say yourself that you are concerned from, from the work that you do? Would you say generally speaking, you're quite concerned about climate change as a whole? Or is it something that we, that you feel that we can have a grasp on? And then sort of curtail it?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, undoubtedly, climate change is affecting our marine environment. There's no question of that. But I think in the waters that, you know, where we live, around Europe, they're very, very heavily impacted by human activity. And it's hard to disentangle the effects of, of human activity and climate change.
So, and fishing is having a huge effect on the marine environment. It's changed the structure of the food web completely. And, you know, it's a very big impact. But we've got a lot of people to feed. So -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
How do you trade off? The effect we have on the environment and the need to feed people? If you don't want to allow fishing, then you've got to find some other way of generating -
Daniel Tulloch
Sustaining life.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, having a sustainable food source. Aquaculture? Well, some people don't like that, either. There, you know, there's no mistaking that there's a trade-off to be made. And finding that balance is hard.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's tough. It's, it just seems to feel like a growing, a growing problem. Because, you know, with more people, there's more mouths to feed and just, everything becomes more, you know, difficult.
Prof. Michael Heath
What it is, the climate impacts are not just about warming. It's increased rainfall, so we're getting more run-off of sediment and nutrients and the land; it's more storms, increased incidence or frequency of storms. We're all seeing that at the moment. So it's pretty complex, the impact on the ecosystem, at the moment.
Daniel Tulloch
Could you explain a little bit more about how your work might help us in the project and maybe related back to any any other thoughts on that?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, the important thing about the models that we produce is this idea that everything's connected to everything else. And through this sort of who-eats-who relationships you, you know, you can build a sort of a web of connections between who eats who and by the time you've built a diagram that represents that web. Then the smallest animals in the sea are connected to the biggest animals in the sea, not directly but indirectly through all these who-eats-who connections.
So, if you poke the system anywhere, by harvesting crabs or whatever, then the whole system is affected eventually.
This effect that we call a sort of cascade that sort of propagates through the whole food web, and it may amplify or it may dissipate as it propagates through the web. So, you know, so if you do something that affects phytoplankton in the sea, the micro algae, then the effects of a change in their production will cascade up through the food web and affect, eventually the whales. Not by very much, perhaps, but there's an effect. And equally you know, if you if you harvest the predatory fish in the sea, then that will release the sandeels and the sprats and the plankton from predation, and they will, and they will, you'd expect them to increase in the result of harvesting. So it's that connectivity through the food web, I think is the interesting thing for this project.
And then you've got the connectivity in space due to ocean currents that are transporting everything around. So you've got these sort of predator-prey connections, and then spatial connections due to the oceanography.
I think that that's what keeps me awake at night, and busy, and interested in the whole thing.
Cause trying to understand that model, that -
Daniel Tulloch
Because it's so hard to grasp everything really, isn't it? You know, to make sense of it all. And I suppose that's why you've got these models in these programmes to help you sort of visualise it, in a sense, or...
Prof. Michael Heath
You're trying to find ways of simplifying the system. Yeah, yeah. There's no point in just recreating the system in a computer because it's as complicated as the real world (both laugh), and you haven't really learnt anything.
So you've got to try and distil out of it, what the essential elements of it are: what are the really important things that matter and, and represent those in a model in a way that you can then do experiments on it, in, on your model and understand, understand how it's working? What really matters? Where are the? Where are the choke points in the system that really control what's happening?
Sandeels are one of the choke points in the system that control what's happening, you know, they channel the energy that comes from primary production of the plankton up to the, up to the higher trophic levels. That's why they're so important in the food web.
Daniel Tulloch
What do sandeels eat?
Prof. Michael Heath
Sandeels eat zooplankton.
Daniel Tulloch
Okay. So plankton and sandeels are really very fundamental.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yep.
Daniel Tulloch
When I was in Shetland, I was speaking to a lot of people in the fisheries there, and oh, yes, please. And they were sort of saying that there's been an increase in algae blooms, and that must have sort of negative impact on, or positive? Is that, is that just the warming of the sea as well? Is that...
Prof. Michael Heath
Well you'd expect an increase in the primary production to propagate up through this who-eats-who connections to produce more, more fish and, and, and more whales eventually?
But then, on the other hand, it depends on what the blooms are. So if the blooms are harmful algae, then that's not necessarily going to be the case. Or if the blooms of algae that are inedible to the zooplankton, then that material will just settle onto the seabed rather than being eaten by the plankton. It'll benefit the, benefit the seabed animals but then the pathway through the ecosystem will be completely different compared to if it had been consumed by the zooplankton.
Daniel Tulloch
Sure, yeah. So the connections there would just...
Prof. Michael Heath
The connections through the food web will be different for, depending on what the bloom of the, of the, of phytoplankton is. But this is happening all the time.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, sure. God it's so fascinating. It's so hard to like, grasp it all, I've just like... I've just been absorbing, trying to absorb so much information the past couple of weeks, you know, from different people, and different sources and you know, some people here are saying there's been a lot of, I mean, I mean, actually in - the thing you said about dolphins, there's been - they said the same thing over in Edinburgh as well. In North Berwick who said they'd seen an increase in dolphins there. And there's been places where they've seen less basking sharks, and more basking sharks, and less orcas, and more orcas, you know, and - yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, fluctuations like this, in the wildlife that we see, have been happening for centuries.
But it's, it's the slow trends that's of interest, I guess. That's what we might think about being affected by climate change. Very difficult to detect though! It’s really hard because it's, it's happening over, you know, over the period of human generations. You know, so one person's experience is not sufficient to detect the trend. You can detect the fluctuations, they're really obvious. You know. But the underlying trend is really hard to make.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, it was the same... I had the same sort of response, also from the person I spoke to in, his name was Neil, in Oban yesterday, he works at SAMS.
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
And he said the same thing, you know, that, you know, this, he'd be working on a project, looking at the currents, the conveyor belt, and how that's maybe slowing down?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yep.
Daniel Tulloch
And he's been doing it for eight years, but he said, you know, that's definitely not enough -
Prof. Michael Heath
Not nearly enough, no.
Daniel Tulloch
It needs to be, 20, 30, 40 years. And, you know, by that point, he's probably gonna be retired and somebody else will be doing it, you know, - but do you think, with the length of these projects, in the time that we have to combat it, I suppose we just need to hope, we just need to take action now, to help reverse climate change without, you know, and that's...
Prof. Michael Heath
A lot of what we do is, is understanding the impact of climate change.
So climate change is happening as far as we're concerned.
What is the effect it's going to have on the marine life?
And I suppose that's providing the impetus for doing something about climate change.
Whether it's adaptation, or mitigation, or whatever, you know, mitigation is reducing the amount of co2 emissions and adaptation is living with the co2. And we've got to be able to do both, I think.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah. What is the, what do you think is the main sort of, main driver of climate change, is that, just purely co2...?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh it's greenhouse gases -
Daniel Tulloch
Greenhouse gases?
Prof. Michael Heath
Methane and co2, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
Going into the atmosphere?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes, yes.
Daniel Tulloch
And.. essentially opening the window for, more sun, more heat?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, it's trapping heat in the Earth's atmosphere; it's preventing the radiation of heat back into space.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, so it's like the glass in a greenhouse, you know, it let's, let's the heat through, but it doesn't let the heat out.
Daniel Tulloch
It's the small particles isn't it, that sort of keep the heat in...
Prof. Michael Heath
It's the actual absorption properties, radiation absorption properties of the gas, that's the issue.
Daniel Tulloch
Right? Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
So the reflected heat, reflected light is over a longer wavelength, than the incoming light from the sun, and that's the co2 and methane absorb the longer wavelengths. And so you get a net heating effect.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. Okay. Yeah, so, that's, it's just...
Prof. Michael Heath
The planets not radiating heat back to space, as much as it would if there was less co2 and methane in the atmosphere.
Daniel Tulloch
So that's, basically the the link is down, you know, essentially from the industrial revolution that -
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes.
Daniel Tulloch
You know, we can see clearly, that this is a human made -
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh there's no question, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
- problem. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
It's interesting, because I speak to a lot of people and, you know, there's there's people out there that just think that climate change is... It's, it's a natural thing, you know, it's just, this is just happening -
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, there've been big climate fluctuations in the past. Yes. There have been, you know, very cold periods and very warm periods, in human history, and pre-human history. But nothing that's associated with this very strong trend in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
The rate of change is extraordinary.
Daniel Tulloch
Really? Yeah, it's concerning.
Prof. Michael Heath
It is!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It really is. And what's more concerning, is just, the lack of ability of, I suppose political leaders to get to grips with it. You know, they all say 'Yes, yes, yes."
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
But when it comes to saying, what we're going to do about it, and the financial implications of doing something about it, they sort of baulk at that.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Unsurprisingly. But...
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's sort of you know, we're trying to sustain, you know (takes a deep breath), our economies and everything. But then (sighs), you've got that weighed against climate change...
Prof. Michael Heath
And, you know, competition between, different parts of the planet, you know (laughs).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, to try and compete. Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. I mean, look at the money that's been, and emissions that have been poured into the whole Ukraine issue at the moment. Nobody's worried about climate change there I think.
Daniel Tulloch
No, no, no. They definitely don't care about climate change. It's, yeah, I think. I don't know, I'm personally, I just, I feel, you know, there's little hope for us if we can't stop fighting one another.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. I mean, the, with the film that came out, late 2021, Don't look Up, you know?
Daniel Tulloch
Oh, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I mean, that's a parody on the reasons why we're not going to get to grips with climate change. I'm quite pessimistic about it all I'm afraid.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah (both laugh). Is that how you feel as well, would you say you're quite pessimistic about, whether we -
Prof. Michael Heath
Well I think so, I mean, do you see any sign of people being willing to give up their cars?
Daniel Tulloch
No, no. I mean, I don't have a car, personally. But I did, I did rent a car there for the project, to do with climate change, ironically. But I needed to, because obviously, I needed to get around to speak to people. But yeah, no, generally speaking, but after using a car now I'm thinking I want to have a car (laughs), because I want to be in nature.
Prof. Michael Heath
But the scale of lifestyle change, that's required to really address the problem, is beyond anybody's ability to -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
- take on board.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And there's no impetus to change the, you know, the way we live. And the need to travel, in a way that makes it possible for people to, to do something about the way they live to make a difference.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Everybody, always, you know, the number of people that have to commute to work. I mean, how are they supposed to do it?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, no, completely. Yeah. No, and with more people, there's more cars and you know, they're constantly...
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, you might have hoped that the, one of the consequences of the pandemic would have been it shifted us towards a less commuting way of living our lives. But no! As we've come out of it, the political pressure has been 'get back into your offices!' and "get back on the trains!' (both laugh).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Quite the reverse, of what needs to happen to stop climate change! (Both laugh a lot).
Daniel Tulloch
No completely yeah...
Prof. Michael Heath
I mean, what?! (laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I mean, net zero?! (laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, no.
Prof. Michael Heath
It's just completely mixed up! You know, just, totally mixed messages.
Daniel Tulloch
Oh, completely. Yeah. We've got two sides to the story. We're trying to combat something that's going to affect us all, and essentially kill us, you know, as a, as a species.
Prof. Michael Heath
-species.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, we're going to be, we're going to wipe ourselves out.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
Before we know it, if we don't do anything about it, and as you say, I don't think you know, generally I've been I've been going around Scotland and speaking to a lot of different people. And when you talk about climate change, they talk about, the, they say, you know, they're doing a little bit, which is mainly down to recycling, and that sort of thing. That's sort of their little bit. That's how people view what they're doing. You know, it's like 'I'm recycling my plastic.' And I'm like, That's great. That's fantastic. But recycling plastic, just, I don't know, I just feel like that's not enough, you know, it's just, you know...
Prof. Michael Heath
Well it's a different issue. That's about waste.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, exactly, yeah, it's a complete -
Prof. Michael Heath
It's not addressing the issue about it. The basic thing is we've got to start, stop digging fossil fuels out of the earth and burning them. (both laugh.)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, essentially. Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And until we do that, we're not gonna make a big difference.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
So, you know, the idea that we can all go on foreign holidays and aeroplanes every summer is, it's got to change. Sorry, but ! (laughs).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, I know. If you want your grandchildren to have a life, then you know...
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, everybody likes to go away on holiday; we got used to the idea of getting on a plane and going to somewhere warm, and having a nice time, but we didn't used to do that.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Time was, you know, in the 1920s, when that was never heard of.
Daniel Tulloch
No.
Prof. Michael Heath
And we all lived! You know, we all had a fine time, to find time.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
So why is, why is it so essential now?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's also a lot of people, you know, that sort of aren't so concerned because, you know, it's, 'it's not going to happen in my lifetime' or, and that sort of thing.
Prof. Michael Heath
Sure (inhales sharply). It's a very, very difficult thing. And, there's so little appreciation of the scale of change in society that's going to be required to make a big difference. And it's, that's not a criticism. It's just...
Daniel Tulloch
Which is... No.
Prof. Michael Heath
t's just an absolutely overwhelming prospect.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. We've got our lives that we're used to, you know, living, and this sort of culture that we've created, for ourselves, you know, it's, everything's sort of packaged for us, and quick and easy. And, you know, nobody has to grow vegetables, and everything's taken care of you know.
Prof. Michael Heath
It has to be, because the number of people...
Daniel Tulloch
Exactly, yeah, and the speed in which we have to do everything now. It's just sort of, you know: go to work, go here, go there, you know, everything's just fast, you know, and nothing's, nothing... You know, when I was out in the islands, it was quite refreshing, being on sort of Harris and Mull and Lewis, and just seeing a much slower pace of life, and a much more connected to nature, how humans should be, I feel, you know, we're becoming more urbanised and more disconnected with nature, you know, we, the only part of nature we have now is going to a park, in the City of Glasgow, and that's sort of like, you know, in the summertime, it's full of people, you know, the park, everyone swarms to the park to sit in the grass, and it's like, yeah... It's just quite interesting from a... I always try and think of... I always try and like zoom out, you know, from like, Earth, and kind of, like, imagine what it must look like here, looking down at all these, like people just zooming about we're, you know, we're like ants, you know, but very dysfunctional, you know, whereas ants are smart, and they work with their with the environment; the humans seem to work against it.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah... There are some bizarre anomalies aren't there. There are a couple of guys who think it would be good fun to have recreational trips to space, you know… (both laugh)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah! Completely yeah!
Prof. Michael Heath
For five minutes!
Daniel Tulloch
Yes, exactly! Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Burning colossal amounts of carbon (laughing)!
Daniel Tulloch
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I mean, what?! What is that all about?!
Daniel Tulloch
No. Totally yeah. I mean, that, that is, that is thee problem. You know, that sums it all up (Michael still laughing) when you've got that Mr. Bezos (said very sassily), going to space. And I don't know if you've seen the video, but they were just there for 10 minutes or five minutes, or whatever, spinning around, throwing Skittles (said very sassily) into each other's mouths and laughing about it. And I'm just like, wow, this is...
Prof. Michael Heath
What was that all about?
Daniel Tulloch
Un-believable. And then coming down and pretending he's like, some sort of superhero, you know, coming out of his spaceship, and just like... so frustrating (sighs in and out) And then, did, I mean, was he involved in COP 26?! I feel like he...
Prof. Michael Heath
I believe he was... I can't, I don't know, but I suspect he probably was...
Daniel Tulloch
I feel like he was, yeah, yeah. So... it's just like, it doesn't make any sense, does it?
Prof. Michael Heath
(Laughs) It makes no sense! (laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
Were you at COP 26?
Prof. Michael Heath
I wasn't.
Daniel Tulloch
No?
Prof. Michael Heath
No, I wasn't I'm afraid.
Daniel Tulloch
What, what did you think about it? Do you feel like it was a..?
Prof. Michael Heath
It was just a circus I thought?
Daniel Tulloch
Circus, yeah...
Prof. Michael Heath
Just stay clear, you know?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. I think Greta Thunberg is right, you know, in her messages, that she's...She's about the only person that's actually really taking this seriously. I mean, she's not, but she's, she's certainly...
Prof. Michael Heath
She doesn't have any fear about telling it how it is.
Daniel Tulloch
No, exactly. And she's, she gives me sort of, she's one person that gives me hope, really. (Laughs) Yes! You know, she, she's young, and she's just switched on; she cares. She can inspire a lot of people to do the same, then perhaps, we can get somewhere, you know, and, you know, I'm, I think everyone's just looking at the (next) generation before, but it's always been the case, maybe it's like, 'okay, you're gonna solve the problem', you know, "you're, 10 years later, you'll do it!', you know? Yeah. But no, she's, she's quite an amazing person. So Jen said to me that you've got some specimens or things that you could show me?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh, no.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Coral, or...?
Prof. Michael Heath
I just, I'm just a collector, and a picker-up of stuff off the beach.
Daniel Tulloch
Oh, really? Yeah, I like all that! Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I can't, I can't walk along the beach without filling my pockets with stuff.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Do you find anything interesting?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh loads of different things, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, really?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. Shells, and bits of coral and (laughs).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, that's brilliant! I was actually on a project years ago, I was speaking to Jen about it, because I worked on a research ship with this man named Murray Roberts, I don't know if you know him?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know Murray.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah? I was going to meet him, next week, but he's been in an accident.
Prof. Michael Heath
Has he?!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh no!
Daniel Tulloch
He fell off his bike.
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh no!
Daniel Tulloch
So but I mean, he messaged, he emailed to say, you can make it so I'm assuming he's...
Prof. Michael Heath
Badly hurt, or?
Daniel Tulloch
I, he said he had to have an operation, he's going to have to have an operation or something.
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh no!
Daniel Tulloch
But I mean, I'm assuming if he's messaged me, then hopefully it's a good sign...
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes...
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, you know, I mean, but yeah, so that's a shame.
Prof. Michael Heath
In Edinburgh, presumably, I mean, it's a desperately horrible place to cycle there.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, I mean, even driving there I hate... I'd rather just not, I mean driving around Edinburgh is awful. It's all the cobbley streets and that... But yeah, no, he's, he's such a fascinating person, and really smart, and I was on a trip on the Discovery or James Cook, I can't remember which one, it was looking at the effects of ocean acidification on cold-water coral. So that was sort of like, my first sort of insight, I suppose into marine science, you know, and seeing as a crew member, as a crew member, yeah. I mean, I'm not a scientist or anything, but it was just, it was quite interesting to observe, you know, and, putting ROVs down. And to me, it sort of looked like a bit of a graveyard down there, it just ah, yeah, there was no, there was just no life there. You know? And, I don't know if that was normal? If that's -
Prof. Michael Heath
Is this the deepwater corals?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, that was the cold water corals. Not too far from Barra.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
Mingulay?
Prof. Michael Heath
Mingulay Reef, yes. Just outside of Barra.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was there was a fish here and there, but really not a lot, you know, it looked very barren, like a desert. In the sea... So, I don't know, if you've been studying ocean acidification at all? Is that something...?
Prof. Michael Heath
No, that's not something I've really engaged with.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Just never got into that, into that area.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah. Do you know, so, the different groups, and that, do sort of like combine your data to make sort of new, you know, studies and, you know, obviously, some people are looking at ocean acidification, or currents or, you know, all these sort of...?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, the sort of models we do, that we, we're pulling in information from all sorts of different studies and programmes.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It's one of those sorts of things that's fun, that's fun about them. Because you know, you can get to talk to people who study seabirds, people who study plankton.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And the whole - you know, it all - it, that's all information that that we can pull into testing our models.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, sure. Sure.
Prof. Michael Heath
That's, that's, that's one of the things that makes it such fun, is you get to be a bit of a sort of jack-of-all-trades in marine science, you know? (laughs.)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, you're kind of like, an investigator, aren't you? Yeah! Of the oceans...
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. So you're not, not really specialising in one little corner, like acidification, or deep water corals, or whatever it is, you've got to sort of, stand back, and have a sort of look at the bigger picture.
Daniel Tulloch
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting.
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, well, I enjoy that, this sort of bigger picture aspects of it.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I guess it's a bit sort of career progression-ish, it's a progression as well. You know, you sort of start off as a student, and you study one thing, in a lab or something, you know.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
As you get older and wiser (Daniel laughs), you sort of step back (laughs), and see the bigger picture, you know? (Both laugh)
Daniel Tulloch
That's good. Yeah. And I'm sort of, at that late career stage, doing that you know? (Both laugh.) Yeah, it's a nice place to be. And what about, talking about see birds? Do you see any sort of, specific species around this area?
Prof. Michael Heath
This area? (Helensburgh)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, there's a lot of guillemots overwinter here.
Daniel Tulloch
Is there? Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. Juvenile guillemots. So common guillemots and black guillemots, actually, and razorbills. But, again, they vary from year to year in the number that you see so there's very, very few this winter.
Daniel Tulloch
Is there a reason for that?
Prof. Michael Heath
Dunno! Um, my suspicion is, it's to do with where the sprat shoals are spending their winter.
Daniel Tulloch
Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
Some winters they come up and they spend the winter at the Gare Loch. And then all the birds are there, and then, this winter, apparently not, so...
Daniel Tulloch
All right, okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
There's been a big change in the Clyde and the balance between sort of sprats and herring, and I suppose ecologically, they're fairly similar. They're sort of shoaling mid-water, plankton eating fish.
Daniel Tulloch
Do they just sort of override one another, so?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well they, it looks as if there's a sort of competition between them and sometimes, herring are very abundant and sometimes sprat are very abundant, but not both at the same time.
Daniel Tulloch
Right? Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And there must, there must be some degree of competition between them, I suppose, and one wins out against the other.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And a different, maybe it's temperature conditions? Don't know.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, who knows?
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, we don't know.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
But we certainly know that there's, you got a switch between one to the other, and back to the other, and at the moment, we're in a sprat phase.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
In 40 years ago, we were in a herring phase.
Daniel Tulloch
And will the, will the sea birds, it's change according to that as well? Yeah?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And I think the sprats favour the guillemots, and the poor porpoises to some extent.
Daniel Tulloch
It's so fascinating, the sort of interface as well between birds and the fish. You know, under, underwater, in the sky and everything.
Prof. Michael Heath
You see the gannets? You know, and they, they dive in like an arrow and come out with a fish, and you think, 'how did you see that?!'
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, completely, yeah, it's amazing! Absolutely amazing!
Prof. Michael Heath
(Both laugh) You look over the side of the boat and you think 'I can't see anything!' (both laugh), and they go 'vrrooooff!' in they go! You know?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, I know. You just wonder, do they just take a leap of faith and kind of hope for the best?
Prof. Michael Heath
No they don't. I mean, absolutely not.
Daniel Tulloch
No, I think they know...
Prof. Michael Heath
I have no idea how they see the fish so far below the surface, they're, you know, they're going very deep!
Daniel Tulloch
How deep do they go?
Prof. Michael Heath
I don't know. But I mean, it must be good 10-20 metres I think.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah... There was a bird I heard about, recently in one of my, my conversations with somebody but they said that they could go like 200 metres, deep, you know?
Prof. Michael Heath
The gannets? Wow!
Daniel Tulloch
Or something? Something can go 200 metres, maybe not deep, but swim at least 200 metres. But I mean, it just felt like a, that's a long way. You know?
Prof. Michael Heath
They're extraordinary those birds.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. They're quite incredible. And, yeah, just trying to figure out what else to -
Prof. Michael Heath
If you go to the north of Shetland, the gannet colony there.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It's just amazing. It's like snow on the cliffs.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah,
Prof. Michael Heath
And then they all take off, and you're like 'whoa!'
Daniel Tulloch
I know. It's amazing.
Prof. Michael Heath
_____________ (inaudible)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, absolutely stunning. Yeah, I love it there. I think that's why a lot of people move to Shetland. You know, a lot of bird, people, we call them.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, the north of ______(inaudible).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And the ____________(inaudible) and those sort of places.
Daniel Tulloch
Yes. They're just, incredible numbers.
Prof. Michael Heath
Absolutely amazing, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
And then you, you had the bird station on Fair Isle, that burnt down down sadly. Not sure what's happening with that. Build it up again.
Prof. Michael Heath
No, I don't know...
Daniel Tulloch
So what got you interested in doing what you do?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh, goodness me!
Daniel Tulloch
(Laughs) Have you always lived by the sea?
Prof. Michael Heath
No, no, I grew up in Yorkshire. But for some reason, I have always been attracted to water (laughs).
Daniel Tulloch
Really?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. You know, we had a pond in our garden, and both my parents were sort of scientists, and my mum had a microscope, and dipping stuff out of this pond, you know, putting it under the microscope, and I was hooked! (Daniel laughs). That was it! From a tiny tiny age!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, you had a sort of bottle of green water, and you sort of put some of it under the microscope, and then you 'wow!', all this stuff in there! Amazing! Algae, you know, all sorts of different shapes and sizes, and just so intricate.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And I was, I was just hooked and that was it.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, that was it from there. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
But in water, on water, anything to do with water and I'm there, you know?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, it's funny, a lot of people have a similar connection to the sea. They need to be next to the sea, you know?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yep.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. And personally, I mean, I work on the sea and sometimes, I'm, (laughs) I wish there was no sea, so I didn't have to work on the sea (laughs)
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah (sadly).
Daniel Tulloch
Because it's such an unforgiving environment sometimes.
Prof. Michael Heath
It is.
Daniel Tulloch
It can be very challenging working on...
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, yeah, you've got to respect it; it's a dangerous place.
Daniel Tulloch
It really is yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Especially in the razor dingy (both laugh.)
Daniel Tulloch
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to really know what you're doing.
Prof. Michael Heath
But it's dealing with the fear, it, it's one of the reasons I go out and do it sort of thing (laughs).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, I think, I think when you're in a moment of, sort of if it's a bit rocky out there then, you kind of just switch on to another, you know, you kind of just focus on what you need to focus on.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes. And everything else disappears, you know?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
All the stuff that's going on ashore, work, and whatever it is.
Daniel Tulloch
Exactly. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It just disappears.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
There's just, there's, you just have to focus on surviving.
Daniel Tulloch
Survival. Yeah, pretty much.
Prof. Michael Heath
And coming back safely.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
By keeping the boat moving, and I think that's the, it's the, it's that disconnect from the rest what's going on in your life that keeps you going out there.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, no, completely, yeah. That's true, actually, I never really thought about it like that. And, because, I've been in quite a few sort of hairy situations, you know -
Prof. Michael Heath
So have I.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, but yeah, I still, I still go out there...
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes, very very difficult situations on the Scotia, for example.
Daniel Tulloch
Oh, really? Yeah...Can you tell me more about -
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, the ship was very new, so it was only, you know, a couple of months old, and I was leading an expedition up into, well the lower Arctic on it in December. And it was very, very icy, in windy conditions. It took a big wave at the stern, it went up. It just kicked straight up the stern, and up the, up the the, up the wall, the head of the deck and into an air intake.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And down into the electrical control panel for the engines. So the diesel electric engines? Yeah. Very, very high voltage systems, and just straight down into the control panels. 'Pfft!' No power, nothing.
Daniel Tulloch
Ohhhh, my goodness.
Prof. Michael Heath
The whole ship was disabled. Nothing.
Daniel Tulloch
Gee whiz.
Prof. Michael Heath
And it must've - blowing about Force Nine and really rough at the time. Of course, the ship, it lost, the flume tank was no longer working. It just lay broadside on and just rolled. Rolled. Trashed the bridge, the galley and, it's just, it was hundreds of 1000's of pounds worth of damage, to this new ship, and couldn't get the engine going again!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
For 24 hours! I have to say, it was a real emergency. And yeah, eventually they managed to hot-wire an engine and - yeah. One or two knots back to Norway over the middle of the Norwegian Sea! (laughs) And theres ice, and for-goodness me and they send a tuggie out to escort us.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It was a really, really dangerous situation.
Daniel Tulloch
Ohh, probably glad to be getting into Norway, then.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah. Stuck there. That was the end of the expedition.
Daniel Tulloch
See, I suppose in some ways, with increased severity of weather, you know, extremes, then it will make research more challenging as well? So that's sort of something I suppose people need to think about.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah.. That was a, that was a very scary incident...
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, no, that sounds horrific.
Prof. Michael Heath
And I, I mean, you know, I mean, everybody who goes to sea and does that, you know, that's what we do.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Encounter very bad weather.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
There's been some extraordinary weather conditions, that, you know... (clears throat.)
Daniel Tulloch
I mean, yeah, you, the weather on land, it just, just doesn't... When you've experienced weather like that at sea, you really know what weather is. (Both laugh.) I feel, you know, people on land just, you know, I'm like…
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh it's nothing, you know?
Daniel Tulloch
It's like blowing-
Prof. Michael Heath
Enormous waves. Absolutely enormous waves!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, completely, yeah. It's, uh, you really can feel the force of the weather. I feel - maybe like everyone should do that. Maybe that's what everyone needs to do, is go and experience a storm at sea?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, you're totally dependent on the engineering of the ship, keeping going. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if everything stops now, you're in trouble.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
You're not coming back from it.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah. There's only one way and it's forward, you need to -
Prof. Michael Heath
Those engines have to keep going!
Daniel Tulloch
They need to keep going! Otherwise big problem.
Prof. Michael Heath
But, I mean, the aftermath of some big storms, where you've got, you know, the winds gone, but you've got this enormous swell -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
- remaining.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, sure.
Prof. Michael Heath
And those are just incredible as well. Just huge. glassy swells.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, you can really feel the strength. Totally!
Prof. Michael Heath
- very long wavelength. Higher than the ship, you know -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I remember coming back round from Iceland round the southern tip of the Faroe Islands. Yeah, but there's enormous following swell. It was just towering over the ship!
Daniel Tulloch
Phenomenal, isn't it? Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And there was a pod of minke whales alongside the boat.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
In these enormous swells, and sometimes we were down below them, and they were up above us, you know, and you could see them through the through the waves.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And then we'd be, they'd be in the trough, and we'd be up above them. It's just, extraordinary experience!
Daniel Tulloch
Incredible. Yeah, no, it's amazing. I mean, it's beautiful, but also just like insanely powerful.
Prof. Michael Heath
Yes, yes. And that was a big ship, you know, it was the Dana, the Danish research ship... You know, it's a 300 foot boat! (Laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
Really? Yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It felt tiny in these swells, you know? (Laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Wow.
Prof. Michael Heath
And there's no wind, it was just like glass. It was just -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
- Wow! (Laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
I know it's incredible. Do you think the, the wildlife sort of, the animals, I know we're, I know we're animals, but you know, the sea life, you know, the, the birds and the fishes, do you think with the extreme weather conditions they also are affected by extreme weather?
Prof. Michael Heath
Oh the birds certainly are!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I, you know, when it's very extreme wind and that, you know, there, there's a lot of spray and broken water on the surface - they can't feed!
Daniel Tulloch
They can't feed, yeah?
Prof. Michael Heath
You do get these bird wrecks, where persist - long persistent storm, they just starve to death.
Daniel Tulloch
Really?
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
(Sighs) God. It's horrible.
Prof. Michael Heath
And that's, that's in the winter and, you know, you get a bad storm during the breeding season and they just get, you know, they can't survive on the cliffs and -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And the chicks get blown off the cliffs.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It's quite, it's well known, yeah.
Daniel Tulloch
So it's sort of a vicious cycle in a way, it's more, climate change goes along everything, everything, all these connections are going in some (laughs) downward spiral, I guess. But I was speaking to this ranger in St Abbs when I first started the trip, and he was talking about the seals (224 pups) that died there due to the storm that was, I think was Storm Arwen or something like that, I can't remember when, the first one, the first storm of the season whatever you call it... But yeah, um, have you noticed anything like that around here? Of dead, dead animals, or, in large numbers?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, I think, like anywhere else you get occasionally you get, you know, a large mortality of, particularly seabirds, but I think that they're particularly noticeable because they end up on the beaches usually, so....
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
From time to time, you know, we've had a mass die-off of guillemots, for example - for reasons that are not very obvious. Most particularly a case on the east coast for example, in the bird cliffs at Crawton south of Stonehaven. Some years you get, you know, a big mortality of puffins, and guillemots there as well in the nesting, nesting season.
Daniel Tulloch
Oh really? Really? Just no reason? No sort of...
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, there'll be a reason, but it, figuring it out is -
Daniel Tulloch
Figuring it out, yeah...
Prof. Michael Heath
It's not that easy. But I mean, seabirds are very long lived, so, you know, they've got many, many breeding years, but, many breeding seasons in their lifetime, and that sort of insulates them against these one-off annual events where there's, a there's a very low success rate rearing their chicks.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Because there's such high numbers, as well?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well it's just they get another chance.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
The following year.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. And what about, I was gonna ask you about coastal erosion? Is that something that you look at? Or have you noticed any changes in the area? Or sea level rises, or anything like that...?
Prof. Michael Heath
(Sighs) I mean it's, those are not aspects of marine science that I've done any particular work on, ah yeah, sure, sea level rise, you know, everybody knows about that. Coastal erosion? It's not a new, new feature of our coastlines. It's been happening -
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
- since the Ice Age.
Daniel Tulloch
Since since forever, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Whether it's increasing or decreasing. Depends where you are, I'm sure.
Daniel Tulloch
Sure. Yeah. Depends on a lot of different factors I guess.
Prof. Michael Heath
Not a big issue here, particularly.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
We don't have the exposure to big waves here. It's very short fetch winds.
Daniel Tulloch
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You can get the wind here, but not, not the big waves.
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, you get a lot of wind against the tide, which produces a very short, steep swell.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
But it's not the same as you know, long swell. That's big, whopping powerful waves.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. Cool. Trying to think of anything else to talk about. Anything else you want to add? Or anything you can think of? That might be...
Prof. Michael Heath
Ah…Covered a lot of ground, I think! (Both laugh)
Daniel Tulloch
We have to be honest, we've covered it all! Do you think? Do you feel like there's... hope? (Both laugh.) Do you think, is there anything sort of positive that you get from your data or your models? Sorry, I asked the same question to the guy I spoke to yesterday (Dr Neil Fraser - Scottish Assosiation for Marine Science).
Prof. Michael Heath
Yeah, absolutely! I'm just thinking, in certainly European waters, fishing has been reined-in and brought under control to a point where it's at the, you know, it's it, it's at a sustainable level, that's -
Daniel Tulloch
Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
That's managing to produce a harvest and, and not inflicting excessive harm on the environment.
Daniel Tulloch
Sure. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
I think we're, you know, really seeing an increase in, in many bird species and cetacean species and, and marine life, that you know, you see things now that I didn't see when I was a child.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, you very rarely saw dolphins or porpoises around the coast when I was a child, now they're there all the time! And I think it's a relaxation of the fishing pressure. It's been very, very painful because you know, in the 1980s, it was more or less anarchy in terms of fishing (laughs).
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
70s , 70s-80s.
Daniel Tulloch
Really?
Prof. Michael Heath
And, you know, everybody blames the EU for, for overfishing. And quite the reverse is the case.
Daniel Tulloch
Right? Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Prior to the formation of the EU and Common Fisheries Policy. It was more or less anarchy, there was no real regulation of fishing activity. There was an agreement between nations about how much fish should be caught, but no, no, no enforcement!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
It was completely out of control!
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And the the Common Fisheries Policy took decades to rein that in and bring it under control.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
In an organised way, in a very, very painful experience with the fishing industry, of course. But there's no doubt we're in a much better place than we were back then.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
No doubt at all.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
You know, the criticism of the Common Fisheries Policy from that point of view, is completely misplaced. There's other things you might criticise the Common Fisheries Policy for. (Daniel laughs.) But it's not, shouldn't be criticised for having reined-in fishing.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. Okay. No, I think that's great. I've been chatting to a lot of fishermen as well. And obviously, they would probably say a different, different... They're probably looking at how they were free, you know, back in the 80s, and 70s, to fish as much as they wanted. So there's probably a lot of frustrations there for them. That looking back at this, this is how they could make a lot of money, you know, life was a lot better and now it's, certainly up in Shetland, the fisherman there, were certainly quite frustrated. I was in a meeting there with 10 fishermen, or around 10 or more fishermen and Alistair Carmichael was there and they were talking about the quota system and how they are catching cod yet they're not allowed to land it, cause they're not quoted for it. Do you think -
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, the inflexibility of the quota system in the Common Fisheries Policy is one, it's certainly one of the things that you would criticise it for.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
You had this sort of baked-in rule about, about how much of the annual TAC was allocated to each country, which was based on catch compositions from the 1960s and 70s? I mean, that was nuts.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And, you know, that's, that's certainly, it's this thing called relative stability, that is this, you-know, baked-in rule about, about what proportion of the TAC each country gets.
Daniel Tulloch
Right, okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
And, you know, undoing relative stability was one of the principal arguments, or bene- or principal benefits that was-, that was advertised as, from Brexit. You know, there's no doubt that that needs attention. And it hasn't happened yet. Even now.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
But you know, that the reining-in of out of control fishing was a big achievement of the Common Fisheries Policy. They were very, you know, they were fishing very hard in the 1970s. But the amount they were catching for the amount of effort they were expending was probably less than, than they are now.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Catch-per-unit-of-effort-spent.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Employed a lot of people and very, very busy. But were they catching as much per-unit-of-effort as they are now? I don't think that's the case.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. No, totally, yeah, yeah. It's difficult, isn't it? Really to -
Prof. Michael Heath
It's very difficult.
Daniel Tulloch
You have to please everyone, you can't please everyone.
Prof. Michael Heath
And the species composition of fish is changing in the sea as well, partly due to climate change. As the seas are warming, and different species are shifting their distributions northwards. So you know, this fixed rule about who can catch what is not, it's just out of date.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. We need to change.
Prof. Michael Heath
No doubt about that. There's some species which we call, you know, the choke species. And hake is one of them.
Daniel Tulloch
Right? What does that mean?
Prof. Michael Heath
Well, hake abundance in the northern North Sea, particularly around Shetland has increased.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. Okay.
Prof. Michael Heath
But this fixed rule about how much hake the UK is allowed to catch hasn't changed to go with it. So, you know, the UK can catch lots of hake but doesn't have the quota to land it.
Daniel Tulloch
Right. It's just bizarre to me -
Prof. Michael Heath
What are they supposed to do with it?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially when you're trying to create a more sustainable living situation, a lot of people to feed, you catch fish that you can't use?
Prof. Michael Heath
You get to a situation where you've caught more hake than your quota allows?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And that one species is shutting down the whole fisheries?
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And that's like, it's a crazy situation.
Daniel Tulloch
It's ridiculous. Yeah, to me, it just doesn't make any sense at all. Because it's great that, you know, obviously, something has happened in terms of, you know, the fish are allowed to breathe a bit better, and grow, and...
Prof. Michael Heath
We can see how we got to this, because the negotiations to come up with some rules about how the total allowable catch for these shared stocks was shared out, you know, those were pretty difficult and arduous and having reached an agreement in the 1980s, nobody had any appetite for undoing that.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Because nobody wanted to lose anything in the negotiations.
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
And, whereas in fact, you know, people know, each country was going to have to give something up and, you know, have some shifting around, swapping and trading of who was allowed to catch what? Nobody, nobody really wanted to open that can of worms.
Daniel Tulloch
No, no. Yeah.
Prof. Michael Heath
Tricky.
Daniel Tulloch
Tricky. Very tricky. Everything's tricky. Climate change. Fishing...
Prof. Michael Heath
Fisheries negotiation are especially tricky. (Both laugh)
Daniel Tulloch
Very, very challenging.
Prof. Michael Heath
Every year! (Laughs)
Daniel Tulloch
Yeah, that's all so difficult. But anyway, thank you very much. I think we've covered quite a lot. Hopefully, some useful information for the project for Jennifer, and everyone. But yeah, thanks so much!